[iks-community] Fwd: Aloha Editor is out.

Tue Jul 20 11:04:17 CEST 2010

Hey,

I would love to get involved in the IKS semantic editor. For those of
you who don't know me, my background is within the Apache Software
Foundation and my company develops an open source Java CMS under the
Apache License called Hippo CMS (http://www.onehippo.com). Our
business model is around selling support subscriptions, consultancy,
hosting and trainings. Some would say we've been fairly successful in
doing so, even though we're using the incredibly open Apache license.
We, too, have had our moments of doubt around different open source
licenses. The good thing about a CMS is that it always requires
tailoring so releasing it under Apache still gives us plenty of
opportunities to make some money. But a WYSIWYG editor is a totally
different beast. I can see that it would be incredibly hard to make a
living from something that has the potential of becoming a commodity
component. In fact - to succeed, it must become commodity.

So I fully understand your reasoning to put the Aloha editor under a
license that gives you some return on investment, and I feel that it's
your good right to be able to make a living from the code you write.

But it also reminds me of the time when the Xopus WYSIWYG XML editor
entered the Apache ecosystem in 2001 through Cocoon and Lenya, and got
pulled back again after 6 months into a commercial version. It's now
nine years later, and the company behind Xopus has recently been sold
to SDL, for an incredibly low sum of money. I know they've been
working incredibly hard to build a great product, but the community
effect was way, way below zero. I've used Xopus (the commercial
version) for plenty of years as a plugin to our product. But we found
that we got so dependent on the original developers, that we had no
other choice than to move to an open source XHTML editor. We have an
obligation towards our customers that we can and will fix bugs and add
features to the components we use in our offerings. So we moved back,
to a less-advanced editor, and ported to Xinha because of its liberal
BSD license. But I want to move forward instead of backwards.

When I first saw the Semantic Editor concept, and later the Aloha
demo, I felt that this was the way I wanted to go. I signed up one of
my developers to join the hackaton. We have the capacity to seriously
invest in the Semantic Editor. And if I can get some of that
investment back from the IKS funding, then that's really very nice.

But - I'm having serious problems to think of *why* I would free up
resources and have them write code that I'll then have to surrender to
a company that wants to sell it under a commercial license. Please
don't understand me wrong: I don't mind that you're *selling*
something, I'd even happily sell your license to my customers if that
would make sense to them. I just feel that this is not the way to
create a thriving community. By asking developers to sign a
"contribution agreement", you're adding a firewall that will scare
away a large group of developers. I'm afraid you'll be effectively
locking them out. And my experience is that the smartest guys are the
ones that are the easiest to scare away.

I hope you don't mind that I'm adding some critical notes to your
statement. It's important to me to know where you're heading before I
commit to this project. And also, I really want you to go forward with
the Semantic Editor and I want to join that effort.

"Whoever contributes will do that under a contribution agreement, that
will guarantee that the contribution is published as AGPLv3"
this is already enforced by the AGPL, so I see no need to sign an
agreement for this

", that full rights a granted to the contributor for his contributions"
ok, also covered by the AGPL

"and at the same time rights to use/modify/distribute the contribution
unter a commercial license for non oss audiences are granted to
Gentics"
this is where I'm having difficulties..
If this is really what you want to do, you might as well go for the
Apache license which is way more liberal, but also gives you the
ability to sell the code as a "commercial product". Yes, you'll have
free riders, we've had them too [1]. But at least it will give you the
full innovative power of a wide community.

[1] http://www.contenthere.net/2008/09/bluenog-subtly-forks-hippo.html

Regards,

Arjé Cahn

CTO, Hippo
a.cahn at onehippo.com / arje at apache.org
Amsterdam - Hippo B.V. Oosteinde 11 1017 WT Amsterdam +31(0)20-5224466
Hippo USA Inc. 185 H Street, Suite B Petaluma, CA 94952 +1 (707) 773-4646
www.onehippo.com info at onehippo.com

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 11:23 PM, Mag. Alexander Szlezak
<a.szlezak at gentics.com> wrote:
> Hi Andreas,
>
> Thanks for your comments. Working on our task to push Aloha Editor out as
> fast as possible didn't leave time yet to clear some of the licensing
> questions.
>
> My thoughts are wandering around the following insights:
>
> Aloha Editor should be freely accessible under a license that provides oss
> code to use for everybody, so it can spread and prosper and at the same time
> build the commercial foundation for future development.  In the end Aloha
> Editor should reward it's contributors and creators.
>
> Behind scenes: Most oss project have a driving force behind it, usually
> individuals with strong engagement acting alone or within a company and
> contributors grouped around them.
>
> Then there are the leechers, who just take, but don't give back in terms of
> code contribution or money and thus do nothing for the common cause.
>
> Our idea is to encourage active contribution by a mutual exchange of
> benefits between the community and Gentics.
>
> That means andybody can deploy Aloha Editor by using AGPLv3 code, or
> purchase a commercial version which frees from the obligations of AGPLv3.
>
> Whoever contributes will do that under a contribution agreement, that will
> guarantee that the contribution is published as AGPLv3, that full rights a
> granted to the contributor for his contributions and at the same time rights
> to use/modify/distribute the contribution unter a commercial license for non
> oss audiences are granted to Gentics. This will help to fund continous core
> development, defend agains IP issues and build a strong foundation of the
> project.
>
> When it comes to plugins, GPL/AGPL ist not ideal when it comes to ajax
> frameworks etc. There's a lot of discussion going on about when something is
> considered a derivative work and thus needs to be published as (A)GPL again.
>  Thus special license arrangements for developers of plugins etc. might
> help. I'm happy about input and still working on it.
>
> To my opinion the ideas outlined so far  will balance the interests of the
> public, developers and Gentis. Feedback and ideas are welcome though! ;-)
>
> all the best,
> Alexander
>
>
>
>
> Haymo Meran schrieb:
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> *From: *"Andreas Kuckartz" <A.Kuckartz at ping.de
>>> <mailto:A.Kuckartz at ping.de>>
>>> *Date: *16. Juli 2010 09:48:04 MESZ
>>> *To: *iks-community at iks-project.eu <mailto:iks-community at iks-project.eu>
>>> *Cc: *"Haymo Meran" <h.meran at gentics.com <mailto:h.meran at gentics.com>>
>>> *Subject: **Re: [iks-community] Aloha Editor is out.*
>>>
>>> Haymo wrote:
>>>
>>>> AGPL in our point of view is the only way for a small
>>>> company to distribute a self founded front-end framework
>>>> with no possibility to up-sell a commercial admin add-on.
>>>
>>> I am well aware of the difficulties to earn money with Open Source.
>>> While a lot of experience has been gathered and scientific work has been
>>> carried out in this area it still is a learning process. Some of the
>>> different kinds of implications of a license on the future are not
>>> necessarily obvious from the beginning.
>>>
>>> One point is that developers have to spend time to think about the
>>> consequences of using a software component distributed under a specific
>>> license.
>>>
>>> Some questions which arise immediately:
>>>
>>> What does the license imply for plugins? Do they have to be distributed
>>> under the same license? Who decides?
>>>
>>> Can a community of developers be grown which helps to improve and
>>> enhance the software when such improvements in the end will be sold by a
>>> single different company? There is an amount of inquality here which
>>> might (not necessarily will) prevent people from joining such a
>>> community.
>>>
>>>> PS: After the hard work the last month I think
>>>> I deserved some rest. I'll bee on a sailing trip next
>>>> week and not answer to the mailinglist ;-)
>>>
>>> Sure, have fun!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andreas
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Gentics Logo Haymo Meran
>> *Haymo Meran*
>> Aloha Editor appears on 3rd page in the google search. We need some #SEO
>> and more links to http://aloha-editor.com. #alohaeditor
>>
>> director of product experience at *Gentics*
>> <http://gentics.com/Content.Node/company/legal/company_anfahrtsplan.php>
>> Gonzagagasse 11/25, 1010 Vienna, AT
>>
>> +43-17109904-513 <tel:+43-1-7109904-513> | e-mail
>> <mailto:h.meran at gentics.com> | skype <callto://haymomeran> | Xing
>> <http://xing.com/hp/Haymo_Meran> | twitter <http://twitter.com/draftkraft> |
>> blog <http://draftkraft.com>
>>
>>
>>  Why is there a picture in my signature?
>>
>> My picture should remind you that the content you are reading has been
>> written by me - especially for you. I'm writing to you personally because
>> you are important to me. I chose e-mail as tool to get in touch with you. My
>> picture in the signature brings me one step closer to you. You can see me,
>> the person who's message you are reading. Another step closer is my twitter
>> status in the signature. It gives you an idea about what's on my mind right
>> now. Hey - maybe you find it interesting, then reply and tell me what's on
>> your mind!
>> Maybe you want to know more about creative and vivid communication with
>> today's tools. Then get in touch with me as well! To reply now click here
>> <mailto:h.meran at gentics.com>.
>> Last but not least reason for this signature is that an e-mail signature
>> can be more, than the usual legal notice. I guess you are aware of this
>> email beeing private, confidential, privileged and only for the above
>> mentioned addressee and if you receive this e-mail in error, please advise
>> me immediately and delete the message. I don't have to tell you that any
>> more. And for sure you know that unless confirmed in writing, duly signed by
>> an authorized representative of Gentics Software GmbH, any liability is
>> excluded.
>> Although taking according measures, complete safety from viruses cannot be
>> guaranteed. Any liability for damages resulting from or in connection with
>> virus infections is excluded. Forum for all disputes out of or in connection
>> with our services is the competent court for the First District, City of
>> Vienna, Austria. Any agreements and all services are governed to the extent
>> or as permitted by Austrian law. Visit Gentics on http://gentics.com. See
>> you ;)
>> Gentics Software GmbH, Gonzagagasse 11/25, 1010 Vienna, FN 199328f,
>> ATU49912901
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> Follow me on Twitter @ http://twitter.com/magicshark
> __________________________________________________________________
> Mag. Alexander SZLEZAK                       Gentics Software GmbH
> Chief Executive Officer
> Sales/Legal Affairs
>
> P +43 1 710 99 04 - 599                         Gonzagagasse 11/25
> F +43 1 710 99 04 - 4                       A-1010 Vienna, Austria
> M +43 699 1 350 41 01                       http://www.gentics.com
> E a.szlezak at gentics.com           Handelsgericht Wien ? FN 199328f
>
> https://www.xing.com/profile/Alexander_Szlezak
>
> Der Inhalt dieser E-Mail ist eine persönliche und vertrauliche
> Information und nur für den Gebrauch des oben angeführten
> Adressaten bestimmt. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfänger
> sein, ersuchen wir Sie höflich, sich sofort mit uns ins
> Einvernehmen zu setzen und die E-Mail zu vernichten.
> Für elektronisch übermittelte Auskünfte und Ratschläge, die nicht
> durch nachfolgende schriftliche Ausfertigung, welche von einem
> zeichnungsberechtigten Vertreter unserer Gesellschaft autorisiert
> wurde, bestätigt werden, wird grundsätzlich keine Haftung
> übernommen. Gänzliche Virenfreiheit kann niemals garantiert werden
> und eine Haftung findet hiefür gleichfalls nicht statt. Es gilt
> österreichisches Recht unter Ausschluss allfälliger Kollisions-
> oder Verweisungsnormen. Gerichtsstand ist Wien-Innere Stadt.
> _______________________________________________
> iks-community mailing list
> iks-community at iks-project.eu
> http://lists.iks-project.eu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/iks-community
>